Learning Occitan

In the past few weeks, I have had to write several papers for my classes, so I haven't had much time left to write to Romanika. The free time that I have had has not gone in vain though. I continue my studies of Latin, a language which, like I've said, I approach differently than the Romance languages. Also, besides Latin, I took the decision of getting started with yet another Romance languages: this time, Occitan. I wrote an entry last year when I looked into learning Catalan. I knew I wanted to learn Catalan, but was also interested in Occitan. After doing some research, I proceeded with Catalan because it has official status in Catalonia, Valencia and Andorra. Now that I have experience with Catalan, I can see that it is indeed an important language where it is spoken, appreciated by the people who speak it. The media resources are numerous as well, including radio and television, and its presence on the internet is significant. Occitan, on the other hand, holds no true officialdom and it doesn't even have a standard as established as does Catalan. The non-official standard, if any, would be Lengadocian, the dialect from Languedoc. Being spoken throughout Occitania, which includes Southern France and small parts of Northern Italy and Northern Spain, Occitan speakers will generally learn and write in their own dialects, with some being more distant to Lengadocian than others. Provençal, one of its main dialects, is usually written in a separate orthography, based on French, while Lengadocian follows closely the orthography of Old Occitan (cf. Leng. Occitania, Lo Provençal vs. Prov. Ousitanio, Lou Prouvençau, even though the pronunciation in both is almost identical).
Sometimes, Occitan is classified, not as a language, but as the group of dialects spoken in Occitania, also referred to as Langue d'Òc. The dialects have indeed diverged, but not so much that if a standard, such as Lengadocian since it's the most conservative of all, were adopted throughout Occitania, particularly in Southern France, a unified language could be established. Some speakers of dialects even learn Langedocian because they are aware of its historical and present importance.
The only true official variety of Occitan exists in the Val d'Aran, in Catalonia. However, this dialect diverges much from Lendadocien. For instance, Filius Lunae, the name by which I am known online, in Lengadocien would be Filh de la luna, while in Gascon from the Val d'Aran it would be Hilh dera lua.

Luckily, I have found a community online consisting of speakers, linguists and teachers of Occitan. I will keep learning this Romance language, so expect to see its name "up there" with the others soon.

19 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hello Fils de la Lune,
I saw your link on Textkit and decided to check it out. I was surprised to see your most recent entry on Occitan. I lived in Languedoc for a year. I had one class in Old Occitan at Ohio State, so you peaked my interest. I am sad to say that even though I was interested, I never actually heard Occitan being spoken (besides on TV or films). I lived in a pretty small town and many people said they could speak it, even some younger ones said they understood it, but no one ever spoke it. Very sad indeed.

xavier said...

Aranès isn't occità but a variant of gascon. At least that's what all of my Catalan books on the Catalan language state :)
Actually, learning Catalan and then occità isn't half bad. Both languages share a commonality of 80%. If you want to read aranès, the Avui sometimes publishes the Aué- the little supplement. As a Romance language student and comparative linguist, you'll really enjoy reading it. You can download it at the website (www.avui.es)

xavier

Filius Lunae said...

Jeff, Chris: It's true what you two say. Like I say in the post, it is hard finding someone who speaks Occitan. Thanks for your input on this.
Xavier, thanks for your recommendation too. In regards to what you say, Gascon is in turn a variety of Occitan. In the Occitan community in which I'm participating (with which you might be familiar), the speakers include Gascon, and consequently Aranes, as part of the Occitan family.

xavier said...

Eddie:
Thanks for the clarification. I've read aranès but never gasco so I always took the differences between both languages as separate in good faith :)
If you can't find the Aue, drop a line to the Avui customer services, I'm sure they'll be happy to help you. Wish I had kept the old issues so I could've emailed them to you

xavier

Christopher Sundita said...

I think in Aranese, you'd say hilh dera lua instead.

Definite articles are: eth/er, era, and es.

--Chris

Filius Lunae said...

Chris S., you're right about that.
"Hilh de la lua" it's too Gascon, but from the French side. I do make the distinction "in the Gascon of the Val d'Aran". So it is Gascon, just from the wrong side. "Hilh dera lua" is indeed in Aranese Gascon, where this variety of Occitan is official (the one I mention in the post); "Hilh de la lua" in French Gascon (yet more differences, which was my point). What I am truly studying is Lengadocian.
I have made the change de la » dera. Thanks for noticing this.

Anonymous said...

As you rightly say, most people will not budge and stick to French no matter how well or for how long you speak occitan to them.

One notable exception is the lads who design the "Adishatz" Gascon sportswear, who will not hesitate to engage in conversation, in Gascon, with anyone who enters their store in Capbreton--near Bayonne (64)

Other than that, those few in France who are willing to speak it can usually be found in the Cercles Occitans at various cities throughout the Midi, such as Besièrs, Montpelher, Pau, and obviously, Tolosa.

Anonymous said...

So where's this online community to be found?

Anonymous said...

Yes I too was wondering where this online community of Occitan speakers resides :).

J F Blanc said...

Adishatz,

The article eth/era is not exclusive to aranès but also in use in "pyrenean gascon" in place of lo/la and of other rare archaic forms (so/sa at Menton, le/la around Tolosa/Toulouse).

My personal experience with Occitan is that many people over 70 are able to speak (but most would not, due to the social pressure they got when young), that in the villages people over 45 still know the language, and under 45 it's almost dead... but in Vath d'Aran, some Aveyron remote areas, or in Piemont valleys, some children still have it as a mother tongue.

Joan Francés

Anonymous said...

catalan y los dialectos hispanofranceses, llamado aqui occidental, son meros dialectos de castellano, arriba espana!

Guillem Carbonell said...

and in Catalan, "Fill de la Lluna". In Occitan lh = in catalan ll

Stephen said...

There's a French group called "Dupain" which sings a lot of traditional songs mostly in Occitan.

Anonymous said...

Meu poliglota lindoooooo!
I love you!!! hehehehe
Explique lá no orkut que história é essa de eu ter chamado você de "padeiro"
Super beijo!!!

Anonymous said...

while in Gascon from the Val d'Aran it would be Hilh dera lua.

Is that Basque influence? Basque lacks /f/ and has turned /l/ between vowels into /r/. And I'm told aran is Basque for "valley".

marie-lucie said...

(Filh de la luna, please delete the spam comments which disfigure the page!)

"Occitan" includes several languages or dialects (depending on your definition) formerly spoken in the Southern half of France, but sadly on their way to extinction as a native rather than reintroduced language. "Lengadocian" is not just one monolithic variety but also has (or had) a number of local dialects. The standardized spelling, which aims to emulate that of the troubadours, hides some major changes in vowels in the intervening centuries, which are common to practically all the Occitan varieties except that of the Montpellier region (a centre of revival of scholarly Occitan studies): in particular, unstressed "a" (as in the feminine ending) is pronounced [o], and "o" is usually pronounced [u] (the vowel written "ou" in French). So Gascon dera is actually pronounced [déro]. And not all "Langadocian" transforms final "al" into "au" pronounced [aw] (as with the phonetic alphabet), although the "l" is dark, rather than light as in French or at the beginning of words. For a person used to French spelling, the various rules of pronunciation make it difficult to know exactly what the vowels should be. The specifically Provençal spelling is easier to follow as the vowels are written as in French.

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670Lahi said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
670Lahi said...

I apologize for the earlier posting error. Anyway, little did I know then that reading HOLY BLOOD HOLY GRAIL was going to send me on personal journey to discover for myself history that I would call 'non-mainstream.' This includes, the Occitan people and their language with which for some unknown reason I am truly fascinated and would very much like to learn more of, even teach myself how to speak, read and write it if I could.

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